Podcaster, poet, punk-rap pioneer, promoter and all-round Glasgow music scene legend Mark McG is back on the show, discussing the twilight years and final shows from Glasgow underground heroes The Girobabies, his future plans for You Call That Radio, what creative burnout feels like, and his new lyric book-meets-memoir collection, If By Magic: The Words and Lore of The Girobabies.
This is a wide-ranging chat that touches on class politics, artistic ambition, reaching middle age, and how artists perceive their own legacies. Scroll to the bottom of this post or subscribe to Strange Exiles on YouTube to watch the video version of this episode.
Recommendations from Mark McG
The song above, ‘Her Fancy Man’, is taken from the Girobabies most recent album Dreams Are Mental, which we discussed at length in Episode 36. It’s still available from the Girobabies’ Bandcamp on CD, vinyl and digital, along with some cool tee shirts. On the same site, you can pick up a copy of Mark’s book, If By Magic: The Words and Lore of The Girobabies.
Mark recently moved out of the city — we talk a little bit about the shift to rural, island life, and what he’s been up to since he moved away from Glasgow. From there, we get into talking about the albums and eras his new book draws upon — if you’re not yet familiar with the Giros, here are the key works to get you up to speed, in reverse order:
Dreams Are Mental (2025)
Who Took Utopia (2015)
Bus Stop Apocalypse (2012)
Social Not Working (2010)
Although lyrics from these aren’t included in the book, you should also catch up on Mark’s solo albums under the name Jackal Trades:
At This Point (2021)
Trip Hazard Advisor (2018)
Need The Characters (2016)
We touch on each of these at least briefly, and if you add them all up, they amount to a comprehensive document of Mark’s fiercely intelligent, rabble-rousing, class-conscious lyricism. His work rate is incredibly impressive, especially if you take into consideration his weekly podcast output, and his efforts as a DIY promoter. It’s a huge and often hilarious collection of lyricism, and deserves wider acclaim and recognition (as we discuss on this episode).
We talk about the epic shows the Giros put on and played at the Barrowlands, a legendary Glasgow venue with roots as a dancehall going back to the 1930s, later becoming an iconic music venue headlined by (just to name a few) Simple Minds, The Clash, The Smiths, Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure. It’s still one of the most sought-after venues in Scotland for any touring band, with incredible acoustics and a sprung dancefloor, and a world-famous, enthusiastic crowd. I’ve personally seen some of the best shows of my life there — from Placebo and PJ Harvey in the 1990s, to Run The Jewels and JPEGMAFIA in more recent years. Read this article from The Big Issue for an overview of the venue’s storied history.
For a band like The Girobabies who are self-managed, promoted and funded, putting on a big hometown show at the Barras is an incredible milestone — and they’ve done it more than once. Despite this, the mainstream press have largely turned their noses up at what one reviewer from Scottish paper the Evening Times described as their “baffling ned punk” — evidence of a persistent and malignant strain of classism in the privileged echelons of the Scottish media.
The Giros are perhaps seen as not “Scottish” in the right way for some critics, who prefer their local artists to stick to trad music or indie rock, and “too working class” for others, who prefer the miserablist posturing of Arab Strap to the more hip-hop oriented, scheme-informed power-rants of figures like Mark. All in all, the Giros are a band who have been sorely neglected by their national media — but they’ve never let that stop them, going on to tour the UK, Ireland and beyond, and playing some of the top stages at UK festivals. Mark mentions a couple of recent gig / book launch events which have passed since we recorded the interview, but you can still get tickets to see them one last time at Glasgow Art School on 28 March.
It’s then we start to talk about burnout, and grapple with the idea of what ‘success’ means in the context of a mostly DIY, self-funded career — something I talked about in my 2025 end-of-year post, reflecting on my own experiences as a self-funded musician and writer.
Like Mark, I have also reached the point of breakdown and burnout more than once — and like Mark, I have found scant opportunities to access support from funding bodies, gatekeepers, and Scotland’s firmly-entrenched media cliques. Creative Scotland’s funding model changed last year after an in-depth review, adding larger multi-year grants for grassroots organisations, but making it harder (in some ways) for smaller, independent producers and artists to fund their one-off projects.
Mark and I have both had some limited support from the BBC over the years, but neither of us has parlayed that into a foot on the establishment’s ladder, or into a sustainable financial model for our practice. We kick about a few ideas on how that feels, what it means, and what the consequences of rigid gatekeeping are for independent, experimental and working class artists.
For now at least, Mark is focusing on his writing, with If By Magic just released, and another book about his experiences as a touring artist and independent promoter in the works. He feels that this is where his head is at, and where his time is best spent — something I’ve also found since re-focusing the majority of my energy away from music, and towards publishing. Both of us look up to Darren McGarvey, aka Loki, who has pulled off an enormously successful pivot from under-appreciated Scottish hip-hop artist to acclaimed writer and critic, and is now one of the country’s best-known and biggest-selling authors (he was also my guest on Episode 31 of this show).
Mark talks a bit about the challenges of touring, and refers to “what happened in Dublin” — if you want to learn what did happen, you can now find out in this post on the Patreon for You Call That Radio (paywalled). It’s a funny story, but also the kind of thing that would make you think long and hard about the pressure you put yourself under as a touring artist. There’s more on that topic in this 2024 Guardian piece, which focuses on how the prohibitive costs and stresses of touring hit working class musicians the hardest.
Before the break, we go back to talking about how new and alternative music makes it to the mainstream in our post-John Peel era, and Mark mentions some controversial recent cuts to late-night programming on BBC Scotland. Replacing ‘discovery’ oriented shows by dedicated presenters with more playlist-driven and nostalgia-indulging shows was a decision many still feel will make the business of breaking through more difficult for Scottish bands who stray away from the cookie-cutter pop and “indie” rock that dominates the airwaves.
I agree with Mark when he says that (especially publicly-funded) radio should “niche down and get weirder”. Truly diverse musical eras like the 1980s and 90s had a healthy pop mainstream, but far more opportunities and pathways for less-established, more experimental bands to reach and influence the tastes of young listeners, and the bands that followed them. Without those routes into the industry, things have gotten pretty boring and generic in recent years.
Mark mentions a few bands who’ve managed to navigate these challenges to varing degrees of success. He tips his hat to avant-garde Dublin punk troubador Meryl Streek, politicised indie-rockers Declan Welsh and The Decadent West, electronic post-punk duo DOSS, and namechecks post-grunge troublemakers Cowboy Hunters as ones to watch (all four are artists Mark has given a stage to early in their careers). He also mentions The Amazing Snakeheads, a Scottish band who signed to Domino before sadly imploding. I throw in a menchie for The Mickey 9s and Post Coal Prom Queen, another two favourites of Mark’s who are growing their audience with each gig and release. We both acknowledge the great work that BBC Introducing in Scotland are doing to highlight and champion new bands in an inhospitable environment for music that falls outside the ‘poptimist’ bracket.
In the second half of the show, we talk about Mark’s new book If By Magic, and how it came together. He worked with Lucy from Salamander Street Publishing on the book, who put out a range of poetry, plays, nonfiction and art books. Mark gives a few details about his next book, which will be more of a memoir about his time as a promoter, and running with the Girobabies. If By Magic contains some lore about the making of the key Giros releases, but if you want to know the full story, keep an eye out for Mark’s prose debut next year.
Mark talks about some of the challenges he faced around how to write certain Scots words and phrases — there are few set rules around how Scots should be written. It exists as both a spoken dialect, and a written one, but the extent of regional variations on terms and their use means each author comes to this problem fresh, rather than being able to rely on a single source of truth.
The Scots Language Centre has more resources looking at these challenges, for those interested. Novelist Matthew Fitt, who wrote the excellent Scots-language science fiction novel But ‘N’ Ben A-Go-Go, has some interesting thoughts on the use of Scots in prose fiction and non-fiction — he says your most reliable guide to how to write Scots is to draw on your own experience of using the language day-to-day:
Avoid stereotypes when you write… Try to find your own original voice and express your vision of life through the rich, varied and always surprising language of Scots.
Mark’s approach was to check his spellings, word choices (and some of the explicitly political material) with several friends, including Doctor Normul, a singer-songwriter and activist who is a regular feature at his shows.
We finish by talking a little bit about You Call That Radio, which is Mark’s regular video podcast (and which we covered in more depth on the last episode with Mark). You can support YCTR (and Mark more generally) by clicking the button below and becoming a Patreon. His new series is called ‘Views from the Sea’ and features Mark holding forth on Scottish music industry drama, politics, the news and other topics.
We also talk a little bit avoiding social media drama (or not, as the case may be). He also mentions the ‘Dead Internet Theory’ — which is looking less and less like a theory by the day. He mentions a Jackal Trades song that touches on the topic of online drama.
Finally, we talk about our concerns over the rise of Reform in the Scottish political scene. I agree with Mark that sometimes we need to stand up and be counted when it comes to politics — but that picking your battles is also vital. I hope Mark’s right about the forthcoming downfall of Farage and his ilk, in light of the ongoing chaos of the Trump administration. I also agree we need to talk more about austerity and class politics, rather than race, gender and other culture war points. If there’s a better artist than Mark talking about this stuff in Scotland, I can’t name them. If By Magic is out now.
Next time…
My next guest on Strange Exiles is still to be confirmed, but look out for some news very soon. In the meantime, check out the special bonus episodes in association with Revol Press, the first of which was an interview with Gareth Stuart Farmer, author of Writing Autism, coming soon from Revol Press in 2026-27. Before next month, I’ll be back with another of these bonus episodes, speaking to Rob Faure Walker about his book Radical Jung — available for pre-order now, out in Spring 2026.
Thanks for listening / watching! An extra special thank you to to my growing ranks of paid subscribers… having some income from this project is helping me to do things like fix my lighting solutions, pay guest contributors, and look at plans to expand into other areas and subjects it would be impossible to explore without support. I’m eternally grateful!
Here are a few things I published recently which you may have missed:
‘A Fascist Haunting’ for Revol Press, on the parallels between a classic Twilight Zone episode and Trump’s chaotic reign
Crisis Masculinity 5: Dead Air, part of my ongoing series on male identity under late-stage capitalism
‘The Ergodic Ethic’ by Brance Nance, a guest post for paid subscribers as part of the Crisis Masculinity project
‘You Cannot Therapy Your Way Out of a Housing Crisis’ by Simon Pearson, the most recent guest post in the Crisis Masculinity series
See you next time — take care of each other.
— Bram, Glasgow, February 2025
